Listing of Past Listserv Discussions

May 2004 (page one):

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Subject: Re: Sealing Amber
Date: 5/1/2004
From: Phil Rea philrea@gmx.co.uk

The lacquer method is a well known way of preserving fossils in amber. It is dipped usually in one part polyurethane lacquer, and air dried.

As far as I'm aware it works well for the prevention of oxidization and surface degradation of the amber (by protecting the piece from air), although long term effects are as yet unknown. It is especially useful in preserving inclusions where maybe part of the inclusion touches the surface of the piece.

Phil.

At 03:19 01/05/2004, you wrote:

> I recently spoke with a German fellow, a dealer of Baltic amber, about a process that he said was being used to seal amber at a museum in Hamburg. This process was revealed to him by a connection who works at the museum.
>
> The process is as follows. One tip of the stone is attached to a strand of fishing line with a drop of super glue. Next, the stone is quickly dipped into a very thin, runny lacquer solution--I forget what he called it. The freshly-dipped specimen is then hung to dry, via the fishing line. After two days, this solution dries hard and clear, nearly impossible to detect.
>
> This is an experiment being done, he says, for two reasons:
>
> 1. To prevent/retard the problem of oxidation and crazing
> 2. To prevent deterioration of inclusions that may be partially exposed to open air
>
> He added that the fishing line is not completely removed: a nib of it is left attached to the stone, denoting that the stone has been "protected".
>
> Does anyone have any further information about this process and its efficacy?
>
> Tom

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From: Re: now I need your expertise
Sent: 5/1/2004
Subject: Tamber12@aol.com

Don't the darker, cherry and cognac ambers, also come from exposure and oxidation and not just artificial intervention?

Tammi

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Subject: Re: Sealing Amber
Date: 5/1/2004
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Phil, how would a layperson such as ourselves get hold of this magic stuff? I don't work for a museum, but do have some very nice pieces worth protecting. Is it something we can mix here at home or buy already bottled?

Tammi

Hi folks, I have another request from the Hamilton, Ontario area for someone who might have a look at a 40 year old "cherry amber", probably bakelite chess set. A photo is not good enough to tell and I can't ask her to mail a piece to me, I'd die if it got lost in the mail because this belonged to her dad. Please, is there anyone in the Hamilton, Ontario area whom you can recommend to have a look at this for her? Any help would be appreciated. I've already recommended she try a gemmologist, a jeweler, local rock and mineral club and university geology department. I'm running out of tricks in my bag here.

Tammi

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Subject: Chinese Black Amber
Date: 5/1/2004
From: Don Bailey

Does anyone out there know anything about Chinese Black Amber??

I saw some on ebay and out of shear curiosity placed a bid on it. As luck would have it I won the auction.

Was this a big waist of my money??

Thanks Don
www.ambersamber.com

OK, I just found out this amber comes from Indonesia.

Can anyone out there give me some info on Indonesia amber????

Thanks Don

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Subject: Re: now I need your expertise
Date: 5/2/2004
From: Tamber12@aol.com

If I were buying this item, I would do one of two things: insure that they offered a money back guarantee if you were to find out they were NOT amber, so you could get your money back. Or, pay through Paypal where you can get a buyer's insurance policy for a couple extra dollars, just in case you get royally screwed. Just find a way to protect yourself, because I tend to agree that they do look suspect. And notice, they do not offer any certificate of authenticity. Buyer beware!

Tammi

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Subject: Re: now I need your expertise
Date: 5/2/2004
From: Jophn Fudala

The picture I included shows a necklace made with synthetic resin, not amber (this I know for certain). I think it is exactly like the ebay item. Heating amber clarifies it- the cogniac pieces are translucent, these pieces are not translucent at all.

----- Original Message -----
From: info@amber-market.com
To: John Fudala
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: now I need your expertise

Of course it is amber. It is simply man made colour. Created by heating. You might need some more details about the heating (temperature, the time, the atmosphere) but there is no doubt in my mind that this is amber. I mean, this particular case does not necessary have to be amber, but I have seen many amber pieces in that colour.

Best regards,

Jan Koncewicz
www.amber-market.com
Business-to-Business Marketplace

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Subject: Re: now I need your expertise
Date: 5/2/2004
From: John Fudala

I agree. I did not notice your picture before. I thought you were still referring the Ebay item #4107109415.

And they are totally different pieces. The once on your picture are not translucent while the one on Ebay IS translucent. Maybe you cannot see it at the picture but I know they are translucent because I well know what it is. You must hold it against a light to notice it

Best regards,

Jan Koncewicz
www.amber-market.com
Business-to-Business Marketplace

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From: about that red necklace
Sent: 5/3/2004
Subject: Maggie

I thank all of you who have weighed in on this because the problem of whether or not it is amber, and if it is, where did the color come from, has bothered me for some time. Like the pictures that John included, the necklace I have is opaque. When held to the light I can see nothing through it at all - and it looks very much to me like the one in the ebay picture. Very hard to tell, though. Please keep the information coming. I value your opinions. Maggie

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From: Re: about that red necklace
Sent: 5/3/2004
Subject: Derek stoneage@vermontel.net

Does anyone know this. It's just a thought. If this were stone you were talking about, Maggie, one quick and easy test to help find out what you had would be using a Mohs scale hardness test. Scratch one rock with another rock of known hardness. I actually use this from time to time.

I don't have the beads so I can't do this test, but it seems to me that most plastic would be denser than amber. That's why the plastic sinks in the salt water test and the amber doesn't. So I would think that any synthetic resin would be likely to be harder than amber. Why not try a scratch test it you have a piece of amber. Also, have you tried the float test on the beads? Or the acetone test?

One of these ought to give you a great deal more information.

Derek Levin

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Subject: Help
Date: 5/3/2004
From: Don Bailey

I'm still trying to get information on amber from Borneo. Is anyone out there familiar with amber from this Indonesian island?

Thanks Don

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Subject: Help
Date: 5/3/04
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Don, I have some from Sarawak in Borneo. It's Miocene in age, and opaque, the color of molasses. It came from a coal mine there. Do you have some or are you looking to own a piece?

Tammi

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Subject: Borneo amber
Date: 5/3/2004
From: Pat Young

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Subject: Borneo Amber
Date: 5/3/2003
From: Maggie

Don, I have a little information on this amber and also a piece in my collection. The texture seems a bit different to me - softer maybe, but it's completely opaque and very dark in most places with streaks of a caramel colored brown throughout. I looked in the Grimaldi's book, "Amber, Window to the Past" and he has a reference to the amber of Sarawak and a photo of a 4'4" piece that was excavated there described as "very opaque and blackish." Of this type he says "The amber itself is similar to dense coal, impregnated with the fossil resin. Upon polishing, various colors of the Sarawak amber become apparent..." The huge piece was found in an area where coal mining is done and he goes on to list some of the insects that have been found in this amber. He gives the tree source as the Dipterocarpaceae family, and mentions that there are many species of dipterocarps growing in Asia.
That's all I have - hope it helps.
Best, Maggie

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Subject: Sarawak amber, Borneo
Date: 5/3/2004
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Hi folks,
My partner Paul and I have had these pieces for years now. We have quite a few, got them from a fellow in Germany who worked for a coal company out of Borneo. They hit a seam full of this Miocene stuff within the coal mine. It's dark, opaque and mostly looks like solidified molasses. I took a few photos to share, but forgive the resolution. I tried to get close and each time got a shiner in the shot with the reflection off the piece. These are quickie shots and I can get better ones later.

-Tammi

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Subject: Re: Sealing Amber
Date: 5/4/2004
From: Herbert RotondaRock@earthlink.net

Hi Tammi,

I think, I can help you with that. The trade name for this stuff is : Acruedur R 40 and is a one-component- polyurethan resin. It has to be mixed with a thinner.
Both products can be ordered from a company in Hamburg, Germany. Price was 17 German Marks (equals to ~ US $ 8.50)
The information sheet I have here is in German, but I could make a short translation.
According to Dr. Weitschat from the University of Hamburg, this is the best protection against oxygen and UV-light. The coating can be removed without problems by re-polishing the amber.
I have to go to a show in Franklin, NC but will be back on Monday next week, so let me know if you want more information

Herb
Rotonda Rock.


-------Original Message-------

From: Tamber12@aol.com
Date: 05/01/04 08:08:51
To: philrea@gmx.co.uk; jpetrovich@sprintmail.com
Cc: amber@ambericawest.com
Subject: Re: Sealing Amber

Phil, how would a layperson such as ourselves get hold of this magic stuff? I don't work for a museum, but do have some very nice pieces worth protecting. Is it something we can mix here at home or buy already bottled?

Tammi

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Subject: Re: Sealing Amber
Date: 5/4/2004
From: Phil Rea

Hi Tammi,

It is exactly the same stuff as you use for sealing timber flooring. Essentially it is just standard clear single component polyurethane lacquer. You should be able to get hold of it quite easily.

I know a few people in Germany who have used this method on pieces they have had for about 10 years now, and thus far they are not reporting any problems or changes either within the pieces or on the surface. Obviously your mileage may vary, so test thoroughly before using it on any valuable pieces!

Regards,

Phil.

That's the stuff, although any clear one part polyurethane resin is just the same

Phil.

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Subject: Amber folk in the Netherlands
Date: 5/7/2004
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Hey group, I need to find someone in the Netherlands that may be helpful to a fellow who has been emailing me. Poor guy is buying supposedly Baltic amber from a guy who is telling him that it's 4-8 million years old. I set him straight, but would like to find someone locally for him who can have a look at his pieces for him and confirm or deny their origin. I could also tell him to look for the tell tale oak hairs, that would be helpful. He does have a high power scope set up with a digital camera and took this great photo of a weevil. So, anyone out there know a person in the Netherlands who might be helpful?

Tammi

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Subject: Amber formula
Date: 5/9/2004
From: Don Bailey

I seem to remember reading something about the ancient Egyptians(?) making fake amber.

Does anyone out there know the formula?

I thought I give it a try and see what happens.

Thanks Don

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Subject: Amber Formula
Date: 5/9/2004
From: Doug Lundberg lundberg@ambericawest.com

Probably not exactly what you wanted (you will enjoy the recipe), but try http://www.ambericawest.com/make_amber.html

Doug

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Subject: bluest of the blue
Date: 5/10/2004
From: toddr@txcyber.com

Hi Folks it is time to post as well a mail on the amber-bord.
Let me show you a blue amber - the bluest i ever saw - 140gramm 12cm to 8 cm
I neverer saw a better blue amber than this one. I am proud to be the owner of such an excelent peace of amber from the dominicanian rep.

Mark - www.bernsteinwald.de

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Subject: amber pic
Date: 5/11/2004
From: LeslieDS@aol.com

Hello,
I had some photos taken of this peice of amber by the australian museum interested in the amber found in Cape York Australia.

This peice has the circular rings that I thought may be tree growth rings or icycals. Any ideas from the list group?

I also have a ultra violet light and been trying to take pictures of blue amber not haveing any sucsess with the shots because the photos come out full of the blue light could anyone fill me in on how to get a decent photo?
thanks Dale

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Subject: amber pic
Date: 5/11/2004
From: Doug Lundberg lundberg@ambericawest.com

Hi Dale,

The circular tree ring looking appearance is not uncommon in amber. Since amber flows downward like a stalagmite (or is it stalactite?) the amber tends to flow upon previously hardened resin, rather like an icicle. This can give a ring like appearance if the amber flows are far apart and the resin has time to harden properly.

Doug

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Subject: Lacewing or not?
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Mark Schneider service@bernsteinwald.de

Hi,
Thank you all for the comments to the blue amber. Right now i have another problem: I try to identify a dominican amber inclusion - i think it is a lacewing but i am realy not shure. I tried to compare it with grimaldi´s studies on fossils in amber (new Jersey) and found a lacewin that might be is the same. To the pictures i have to remark that the foretwing is not clear to see in detail ( the fine forks are not to see as well are some hairs on the forkpiks and it is a bit dust on the wing ) I hope somebody can help me. I think it is not a cicade.

Thanks a lot

Mark

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Subject: amber pic
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Chis Albrecht

Good Morning!

I have seen similar rings with "drip" cross-sections I have found. These are layers of flowing amber down an icicle. When the "icicle" breaks vertically, you get these rings. Infact, this is typically where I find the highest quantity of entrapped insects.

Chris Albrecht

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Subject: Amber Flow
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Derek

Since I researched an article last year for Lapidary Journal on a piece of amber, some questions have kept bothering at me and the photo of the rings sent by Dale has brought it to my forebrain again. Does anyone have any ideas on how fast or for that matter how slow, the tree resin/sap that eventually became amber flowed?

Here's what I mean. In a modern tree, the sap's main purpose is to carry nutrients and water from the roots to the rest of the tree. When the tree is wounded, however, that same sap flows into or over the wound and eventually seals it. The sap then hardens into a resin and the tree, if it is not too compromised by an excessively large wound or an invader, like a disease or insects or etc....eventually can scar over and even grow bark to cover the wound. But any tree I'm familiar with in this process is from the colder temperate zone of Northern New England where the flow is influenced by a wide range of seasonal temperature changes. I'm wondering for how long sap would have flowed in the areas where amber was eventually produced. Most of those areas are now hot places. If they're not hot anymore, the evidence is strong that they were at the time the trees making amber were extant. I just keep wondering what kind of volume of sap there was in a day, a week, a month. How long would it have taken for the wound to seal, whether the sap flowed through seasonal changes, over months, that sort or thing. I mean I have to assume that when the tree was too compromised it died. And eventually, obviously all did.

Another interesting question has to be what made the wounds to begin with. Since we weren't around with axes and saws etc., it had to be entirely, "natural causes." I can see storms ripping through and making a mess of trees, but I have to wonder what else. I'm being ignorant here, but are we looking at dinosaur tails whipping around? Maybe a few early beavers like animals?

I guess my bottom line is where did this huge amount of sap come from? And also over what period of time individual puddles accumulated? It seems like only a very small amount of it would have eventually become amber. Less than 1% for instance.

Lot's of sap flow questions, but it seems it goes to the heart of many amber questions too.

Derek

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Subject: Lacewing
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Mark Schneider

No Keith it is Dominican Amber

Thanks so far

Mark

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Subject: Lacewings
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Don Bailey

Hi,

The wings do not look similar enough to me for it to be a Lacewing. Could it be an alder fly? It is difficult to tell from the pictures. Have you got pictures of the head? More specifically, the jaws and the antennae.

Phil.

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Subject: Amber man
Date: 5/12/2004
From: Don Bailey

Did I ever show you guys this????

This was a little piece of junky looking rough Baltic amber. I was going to throw it away but on a whim I decided to clean it off and try to make a small pendant out of it.

After cleaning off all the crust and shaping it a face popped out in front of me.

If you look carefully you can see the face of a man. His eyes are squinted and his mouth is open. He has a high forehead with a receding hairline; there is a beard on his chin.

I did nothing to touch it up; it is exactly as it was after I shaped it.

This has to be a one in a million piece.

Don

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Subject: What have I got???????
Date: 5/18/2004
From: Don Bailey

Hi all,

I receintly got in an order of "Black Chinese Amber" from a seller on ebay. I normally only buy from "known" amber dealers but this guy had both amber and copal for sale which made me think he knew the difference.

I went to cut off a small piece to test it and immediatly thought "its copal!". I thought this because some of it was melting as I cut through it with my dremel.

I then took the piece and put it in acetone and it didn't melt, it didn't even get sticky. When it burns it smells like pine with a slight hit of tar(?). I can't quite place the smell its a little acrid.

Lastly it almost floats in tap water. Well,,, after testing all 3 pieces one piece floats, one almost floats and one settles on the bottom.

Any ideas. Could this be "almost amber but not quite"?

Thanks Don

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Subject: what have I got?????
Date: 5/18/2004
From: Pat Ypung

Don,

Your questions are very interesting.

I collect fossil resins from the Miocene Formation in North Carolina, USA. Although it has not been scientifically

proven to be amber (or even of botanical origin), our material has all the same properties as yours. In addition, some flouresces a beautiful blue and some doesn't . It comes in all colors from pale transparent yellow to black, red, and even brown and gray opaque. It all smells the same except the yellow. If polished, it will not hold a shine for more than a day. One piece melted down to goo on a counter while acetone will not dissolve other pieces even in soaking.

Although our fossil deposits here are of a marine deposition, occasionally we find fossil wood. It may have streaks of stone combined with streaks of lignite in the same piece. Only one piece of mine has a tiny bit of 'amber' connected to it in the center. Several pieces of 'amber' have what appear to be bits of bark. Three have insect (unidentified) inclusions.

Do you know what sort of deposit or age your material might be?

Pat Y

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Subject: Blue Amber
Date: 5/19/2004
From: Dale Wicks

Hi ,
Thought I would send some photos of the blue amber I have taken under a ultra violet light. sorry they are not very clear.
The plain photo is of the peices in natrual light.
kind regards Dale

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Subject: Blue amber
Date: 5/19/2004
From: Hermann Dittrich hdittrich@lariamber.com

I know...
The worst thing is: The guy is known for that he sells a LOT to Japan that way. They pay whatever he asks for it, because

they know that they only get it here in the DR.

/Hermann

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Subject: blue amber
Date: 5/19/2004
From: Pat Young kpky@pamlico.net

Hey guys,

All this pretty picture stuff is nice I'm sure for the jewelry makers out there....but some of us want more. How about a wee bit of information on age, country of origin,known research, etc. I believe this site is about helping as well as displaying. This type of information protects all of us from eBay mistakes and other shysters.

Pat Young

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Subject: blue amber
Date: 5/19/2004
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Pat, Dale has given us lots of info on this amber, as much as he has anyhow. Dale has a museum in Sydney (Australia) investigating the source, as it is unknown. He has been finding these pieces as they either wash up onto the eastern shore of Australia after a storm, and in the river sands along the banks. There is no known source, not yet. It's thought it might be an import, washed down from Indonesia or a similar country of origin. These deposits could be millions of years old and are now resurfacing every time there is a storm. Some of it resembles the color and quality of Burmite, the amber from Myanmar. Some chemical testing was done on a few pieces some years ago. However, the testing did not conclude where the resins were formed definitively. Dale can provide more information, but the stuff is real and Dale is NOT a shyster. He's a nice guy who happens to be in a beautiful and exotic part of the world with a great big juicy amber mystery on his hands. And we are enjoying hearing about it all. Keep up the good work Dale, and can you fill in some holes I might have left in this story?

Tammi

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