Listing of Past Listserv Discussions

February 2006:

Subject: Re: Fungus???
Date: 2/1/2006
From: ambercollector@yahoo.com

Are you sure that is fungus and not insect eggs? They look like eggs to me.

Keith Atkinson <kga1@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Anyone want to take a guess on what kind of fungus this is on the stick in the center of the photo--Keith

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From: February 14, 2006
Sent:2/2/2006
Subject: ronbuckley@fuse.net

Hi, On 2/14/06 I will be releasing two amber specimen pictures which represent almost three years work, and will change some the theory of the botanical make up present about 110 million years ago. Ron

Hi, attached is a picture of a new species of weevil in Burmite that has just been described and the paper being printed. When the paper is printed and sent out I will be able to release further imformation. Ron

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Subject: ow to value a rare piece
Date: 2/3/2006
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Folks, we have a piece of Baltic with a very nice pine cone inclusion. I have someone who might have a buyer for the piece, but am clueless as to what we should place as a value on the piece. It's about 1" x 1.5" in size and the pine cone is clearly visible to the naked eye, about half to 3/4 inch long. Any advice would be appreciated.

Tammi

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Subject: Re: How to value a rare piece
Date: 2/3/2005
From: collinsmarko@hotmail.com

Hi Tammi,
I would not take anything less than $1,500 for this piece, Doug sold an accacia sprig for $1,400 i think, and this is much rarer. But if your looking for a quick sale i'll give you $15 for it :-)
Mark

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Subject: More cretaceous cavortings
Date: 2/4/2006
From: tbuck22@optonline.net


Dear Ron,

Hi gang, it's me again.

In the same piece of Burmite as the bodyless fungus gnat of last week, I found two additional animals. The first, I hope, is a soft bodied tick !?!? I'm a rank amateur at this but that's what it looks like to me. It has the shape and on a soft bodied tick the mouthparts are hidden.

The second animal seems to me to be a beetle. I'm basing this on what I see as wing cases on its back.

Magnification for both photos was 40X.

I'd welcome any and all comments.

Best regards,
Tom

Tom Buckley
Silicone Specialist
Polymer Engineering

Phone: 845-258-4928
Fax: 845-258-4930

Thanks guys, but I still think there's a chance of it being a soft bodied tick.

If you look on p.164 of The Amber Forest by Dr. Poinar, the picture of the tick looks just like mine. Also notice that the legs are joined to the body at a point close to the centerline, rather than out at the edge of the body, just like my specimen. I am having difficulty deciding which of the appendages are legs and which, if any, are antenna. I know that mites have only six legs until their first molt, then they have 8. Do ticks demonstrate the same trait?....I mean, if they even molt.

I'm pretty naive when it comes to insect anatomy, guess I'd better cough up the money and buy Dr. Grimaldi's book.

Whether it's a tick or a mite, it was a blood sucker.....who wants to get in on the ground floor of Buckley's Cretaceous Park? We accept PAYPAL. <GRIN>

Tom

Tom Buckley

Subject: Re: Fw: possible fly inclusion
Date: 2/6/2006
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Nice little fat fly you got there, mate. And he's extruding gas bubbles from the mouth and rear end. Poor little fella! Any new news from Henk?

Tammi

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Subject: Burmite
Date: 2/36/2006
From: ronbuckley@fuse.net

It has taken about five months to get more Burmite inclusions in. I have just received 220 specimens which I will start shooting. They have been tough to get. I should have a few up this sunday on ebay. Ron

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Subject: carvings
Date: 2/7/2006
From: theedgars@shaw.ca

thought I would share some photos of some carvings from this year

w amber

the first 2 are display pieces. The 3rd one is a telescope with topaz lenses. The 4th one is perfume bottle with a Baltic amber lid.
All are made of Chiapas amber

w amber

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Subject: NOVA
Date: 2/10/2006
From: lundberg@ambericawest.com

Just forwarding something I received from "NOVA".
By the way for half of this listserv that is not in the USA or UK - NOVA is a popular science program produced in the US or the UK. NOVA often gets a lot of their science shows from the UK.

Doug

(attachment not shown)

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Subject: Burmite
Date: 2/11/2006
From: ronbuckley@fuse.net

We are again, after many months , able to offer Burmite inclusions on ebay starting tomorrow. We will also have some groups of insects available on ebay. Thanks, Ron

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Subject: Enhydros
Date: 2/12/2006
From: tbuck22@optonline.net

Dear fellow Amberfiles:

Since it's snowing in New York with 24" accumulations expected, I don't think I'll be heading down to the New Jersey amber pits. So, I'll sit in my warm office and ask a question instead.

First, let's clarify the terminology. By "enhydro" I'm referring to a movable air bubble inside of a bubble of water, not just an air bubble. Is this correct?

What is your opinion on enydros? In Andrew Ross' book, Amber , he states there is a disagreement amongst scientists as to whether the bubbles really contain representative atmosphere from long ago. Some believe that the oxygen in the bubble has reacted with the amber and has thus been altered. Does anyone know of any studies done in this area?

Any and all comments are welcomed.

Tom

Tom Buckley

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Subject: Fwd: Enhydros
Date: 2/12/2006
From: andy.ng.aik.hoe@gmail.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andy Ng <andy.ng.aik.hoe@gmail.com>
Date: Feb 13, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Enhydros
To: Tom Buckley <tbuck22@optonline.net>

Hiya Tom and all,

Been awhiles since I posted anything...life has been rather
interesting with lots of monsoon-wrought landslides to explore for
resinite. The best ones are those that exude a resin-y scent above the
normal damp earth and decaying vegetation smells.

OK...about enhydro inclusions...as the 'hydro' part of the word
suggests, a liquid is part of such inclusions. Someone please correct
me if I'm wrong: Phase 1 enhydros are comprised of a liquid, usually
water, Phase 2 enhydros are made up of a gas and liquid...and there is
a Phase 3 type as well...but my memory fails at this point.

Personally speaking, there is a Phase 4 type which I usually discover
when fine sanding or buffing. A water bubble with only a very thin
layer of resin on top bursts, wetting my buffing wheel and spattering
on my safety glasses, prompting me to exclaim something along the
lines of '<Censored>! Another mother<censored> bloody bubble!!' Those
type 4's are then chucked back into the pile destined for 100-grit
sanding. :-P

Andy

On 2/12/06, Tom Buckley <tbuck22@optonline.net> wrote:

>>
>> Dear fellow Amberfiles:
>>
>> Since it's snowing in New York with 24" accumulations expected, I don't
>> think I'll be heading down to the New Jersey amber pits. So, I'll sit in my
>> warm office and ask a question instead.
>>
>> First, let's clarify the terminology. By "enhydro" I'm referring to a
>> movable air bubble inside of a bubble of water, not just an air bubble. Is
>> this correct?
>>
>> What is your opinion on enydros? In Andrew Ross' book, Amber , he
>> states there is a disagreement amongst scientists as to whether the bubbles
>> really contain representative atmosphere from long ago. Some believe that
>> the oxygen in the bubble has reacted with the amber and has thus been
>> altered. Does anyone know of any studies done in this area?
>>
>> Any and all comments are welcomed.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Tom Buckley
>> Silicone Specialist
>> Polymer Engineering

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Subject: Re: Enhydros
Date: 2/12/2006
From: philipp.kaestner@t-online.de

Tom, as far as I recollect, an enhydro is an amount of water (which sometimes can be seen moving) within a natural air bubble in the amber, not the other way round.

Regards

Philipp

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Subject: Re: Enhydros
Date: 2/13/2006
From: tbuck22@optonline.net

Philipp,

If it was a water bubble in side of an air bubble , the water would have to exhibit an extraordinary amount of surface tension to maintain the integrity of a bubble. I really think it's an air bubble inside a water bubble.

Either way, does anyone think that the preserved air and water actually retain the chemical composition of the Cretaceous?

Tom

Tom Buckley

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Subject: enhydros & amber cab
Date: 2/13/2006
From: stoneage@vermontel.net

I'm sure most folks here know that there are also enhydros in stone. I have several quartz crystals with water and air. Actually the only way you're likely to know that there is water in there whether in stone or amber is because of the air.

I've often wondered what the nature of that water and air would be, in terms of it's age. I guess the obvious question is whether that water is evaporating to allow for the air bubble. If it is, there has to be a gas exchange to the outside.

It would seem, however, that since my quartz crystals, despite having been in dry for many years still have water in them, it would stand to reason that it's fairly stable. If you've got 20 - 60 million year old amber with water in it, unless it was under water for a very long time, I'd have to assume that the water is part of the formation and if that's true then so is the air. There's another part of this too. That is that the water in amber, it seems, would have had to have been trapped when it was still copal. I don't know if this has been studied, but I'm assuming that the copal shrinks as it releases it's volatiles, so the air in there could either be a gas from the volatiles or it could also be a void, basically a vacuum due to the added space coming from the shrinkage. All kinds of possibilities.

Derek Levin
www.gemmaker.com

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Subject: Re: Enhydros
Date: 2/13/2006
From: sayless@adelphia.net

So, it would seem, that quite a bit of the "essence" of the amber has been absorbed by the water.

Les

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samuel Zschokke" <samuel.zschokke@unibas.ch>
To: <amber@www.ambericawest.com>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: Enhydros

>
> Dear all,
> enhydros are definitely air bubbles in water within amber.
>
> For anyone interested in some more information about these bubbles see:
>
> Buchberger W, Falk H, Katzmayr MU & Richter AE (1997) On the chemistry
> of Baltic amber inclusion droplets — Monatshefte für Chemie 128:
> 177-181.
> Abstract: Baltic amber inclusion droplets were analysed by means of gas
> chromatography, mass spectroscopy, FTIR spectroscopy, and capillary
> electrophoresis. It turned out that they were constituted of water in
> which a variety of inorganic cations (Na+, K+, Ca2+, Mg2+) and anions
> (Cl-, Br-, NO3-, SO42-) were dissolved. Moreover, NH4+, acetate, and
> succinate ions were detected with the latter strongly predominating.
> However, no terpenes could be traced. >From these results it was
> concluded that the inclusion droplets stem from splash water of a
> saline environment into which amber genuine succinic acid was
> extracted. Ammonium and acetate ions could originate from either tree
> sap contents or biogenic contents of the splash water.
>
> Cheers, Samuel Zschokke
>
> On 13 Feb 2006, at 12:21, Tom Buckley wrote:
>
>> Philipp,
>>
>> If it was a water bubble in side of an air bubble , the water
>> would have to exhibit an extraordinary amount of surface tension to
>> maintain the integrity of a bubble. I really think it's an air bubble
>> inside a water bubble.
>>
>> Either way, does anyone think that the preserved air and water
>> actually retain the chemical composition of the Cretaceous?
>>
>> Tom

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Subject: Fw: Burmite flower discovery
Date: 2/14/2006
From: ronbuckley@fuse.net

For about the last three years Jorge Santiago Blay in the Department of Entomolgy at the National Museum of Natural History at The Smithsonian Institution in Washington along with Scott Anderson and myself , have been working on a paper describing two Burmite cretaceous(100myo) flowers. The scientific note concerning this discovery is in the November/December issue of Entomolgical news which is now released. The PDF of this article is attached. The original pictures in the article were in black and white. Scott Anderson has adjusted the PDF so that the color pictures are in the copy you can download. These two flowers are of special importance : 1). They support the inference that there were substanctially diverse forests back 110- 100 million years ago. 2). It suggests that that there were well established insect- plant interactions at this time. 3). these are two of the most preseved complete Cretaceous flowers ever found. As of this point there have been no older flowers described in the Lebanese amber. This article is a scientific note with the major and much larger paper about ready for review. Look closly at the center of the flower and you will see something interesting going from one structure to another. Ron

Santiago-Blay.pdf

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Subject: Re: Enhydros.
Date: 2/14/2006
From: tbuck22@optonline.net

Very interesting stuff. Thanks Samuel.

Just from the abstract it would seem there is evidence of a transference
from the amber to the water ie. succinic acid. However, the lack of terpenes
in the same water would mean that these volatiles are escaping from the
amber indicating an interchange between the amber and the outside
environment.

I may have answered my own question. I was soaking a piece of amber in a
volatile silicone and when I removed it, I noticed some enhydros that had
not been there previously. They subsequently disappeared .......hmmmmm. Now
I realize that this observation was not documented by scientific methods and
silicone is a very different animal than water. For one thing, silicone has
a very low surface tension and can thus creep and flow very easily. If a
micro-fracture is present, capillary action will cause it to move quite
rapidly.

Is it possible that under the extreme pressures experienced by resin during
its transformation into amber, that water, a big molecule, is forced into
the amber. Then, when the extreme forces have stopped, the water is trapped
in the amber? Additionally, the lowering of the pressure allows certain
entrapped gases to leave the water, but still remain in the amber, thus
causing the classic air- bubble- in- water- bubble enhydro?

It would be interesting if one could determine if micro-fractures are
present around enhydros.

Sorry for the ramble.

Take care.

Tom

-----------

Derek,
All kinds of possibilities indeed.

The study that Samuel referenced did not find any volatile terpenes within the air pocket.

It seems that as we explore this question, we're ending up with more questions than answers. But that's what makes exploration and science interesting......things that make you go, "...Hmmmmmm..."

Tom

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Subject: Fwd: enhydros & amber cabs
Date: 2/14/2006
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Hi All,
I've added a few geologist's comments interspersed below.

At 10:03 AM 2/13/2006, Derek wrote:
>I'm sure most folks here know that there are also enhydros in stone. I
>have several quartz crystals with water and air. Actually the only way
>you're likely to know that there is water in there whether in stone or
>amber is because of the air.

Not quite so, there are other ways of knowing! These are called fluid
inclusions, and they are common in many common minerals (such as quartz,
calcite) that form as precipitates from groundwater brines, or simply in
the presence of brines. Another common mineral with plentiful fluid
inclusions is natural halite (rock salt) that forms as an evaporite
mineral... it is very common to find "chevron" halite where the cubic
nature of the crystal is highlighted by thin zones that are rich in tiny
fluid inclusions.

>I've often wondered what the nature of that water and air would be, in
>terms of it's age. I guess the obvious question is whether that water is
>evaporating to allow for the air bubble. If it is, there has to be a gas
>exchange to the outside.

Most minerals are quite good at holding onto the original water chemistry
for millions of years (very low rates of diffusion of elements through the
crystal structure). The most common non-destructive method of examining
the water chemistry is to use a temperature-controlled microscope
stage. In short, you heat and cool the sample while examining it under the
microscope's high power to determine the temperature at which the liquid
phase begins to turn to vapor... a temperature that is largely controlled
by salinity.

>It would seem, however, that since my quartz crystals, despite having been
>in dry for many years still have water in them, it would stand to reason
>that it's fairly stable. If you've got 20 - 60 million year old amber with
>water in it, unless it was under water for a very long time, I'd have to
>assume that the water is part of the formation and if that's true then so
>is the air.

You're probably right... unless the amber fluid inclusions are in close
proximity to a flow plane or other feature that might allow enhanced
migration of fluid, the inclusion fluid likely has remained close to the
original composition of the water enclosed when the resin sealed it
in. There would be (as the abstract posted here earlier stated) some
chemical reactions with the resin that add organics to the fluid, but
chemical elements already in the water are unlikely to have suffered much
diffusion away through the resin.

>There's another part of this too. That is that the water in amber, it
>seems, would have had to have been trapped when it was still copal. I
>don't know if this has been studied, but I'm assuming that the copal
>shrinks as it releases it's volatiles, so the air in there could either be
>a gas from the volatiles or it could also be a void, basically a vacuum
>due to the added space coming from the shrinkage.

On this point I will display my ignorance and suggest (only suggest,
because I have zero data to back this up) that the amount of shrinkage due
to loss of volatiles would be fairly minimal and very unlikely to create
any space problems inside a piece of amber. However, the very last point
here seems backwards to me, as there would be not ADDED space but rather
LESS space resulting from shrinkage. :-)

>All kinds of possibilities.
>
>Derek Levin
><http://www.gemmaker.com>www.gemmaker.com

On this I will agree fully! Enhydros are fun. In case you've never seen
it before, here's an animated dancing enhydro image that I put together a
long time ago from four photos of an amber specimen taken at different
angles to the horizontal.

=Paul

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Subject: Burmite flower paper opening
Date: 2/14/2006
From: ronbuckley@fuse.net

A few people are having a problem opening this paper with the color inmages Attached is a copy of the original flower paper, with images in black and
white. The problem is that it is a version issue. In order to open the PDF with color, you have to have Adobe Reader version 5.0 or higher. Most newer systems should have that version, but if not, the newest version, 7.0.7 can be downloaded free
from:

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

You can also find an older version that would still work too.
For those that get a general message that the file cannot be opened, they
most likely don't even have Adobe Reader installed.

The black and white file has no encryption, which means anyone with Adobe
Acrobat can open and edit, pretty much no matter what version they have.
If you still have any problems feel free to contact me. Thanks Ron

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Subject: Re: enhydros & amber cabs
Date: 2/14/2006r.
From: stoneage@vermontel.net

Thanks for this response. I must point out first that whatever I write here is pure speculation on my part so I don't expect to be right or wrong, just to raise questions. Paul is clearly more knowledgeable than I am so that is not at issue. So my response to his comments should in no way be construed as my trying to prove myself right and him wrong. With that in mind I respond to Paul's email solely for the purpose of furthering the discussion.

Derek
www.gemmaker.com where you'll find so new green amber cabs.

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Subject: amber bubbles
Date: 2/15/2005
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Guys, here is the link to the bubble animation Paul mentioned in his post on the enhydro:

I forgot the link!!! Here is the link to the bubble animation:

http://www.uky.edu/AS/Geology/webdogs/amber/more/bubbles.html

=Paul

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Subject: check this out
Date: 2/15/2006
From: Maggiecatbird@aol.com

Dear folks, Just ran across this unusual specimen on ebay and would like to hear some discussion of what the list thinks. I'm noticing the concoidal cracks on the side, but I don't quite buy the rainbow colors in the last pictures, especially not for Baltic. Any chance that this could be several clarified pieces melded together? The seller doesn't seem to know - he's just saying what he's been told. Look up amber - gems, minerals - #6604293028 - would really like to know what some of you think.
Best, Maggie

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Subject: Re: check this out
Date: 2/16/2006
From: baltic_gold@yahoo.com

It seems to be not Baltic amber. Maybe Dominican. I have never seen such size transparent Baltic amber stone. Usualy butterscotch (sometimes with some transparent).

Saulius

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Subject: Madagascar copal collection
Date: 2/16/2006
From: cavexplorer@gmail.com

Amber people,

I'm selling out some nice pieces of my amber and Madagascar Copal collection, check it out on f.i. eBay Objectnummer: 6254676858, rare copal spider.

Hans

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Subject: rare
Date: 2/18/2006
From: jfudala@comcast.net

Unique piece I saw at The Museum of The Earth in Warsaw, Poland- teeth in Baltic amber. Or is it amberized teeth?

John

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Subject: Re: rare
Date: 2/19/2006
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Oh! Looks like they are in bad need of a dental hygenist and some scraping!!! Really odd and interesting though.

Tammi

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From: Fw: rare
Sent:2/19/2006
Subject: tbuck22@optonline.net

So that's where my mother's false teeth ended up !

Hey John, welcome back. I hope that your trip was enjoyable.

Tom

Tom Buckley

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Subject: teeth in amber
Date: 2/19/2006
From: jfudala@comcast.net

Hi!

The close-up picture of the teeth in amber I attached, seems to give a wrong impression about the whole piece... it merely measures 1 1/4" by 1" tops!
So it is a small piece. It came out of a batch of amber in a tumbler, hence the polish and all the white residue in crevices.

John

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Subject: Check out the Butterfly in amber from China
Date: 1/20/2006
From:Baumgartner.Donald@epamail.epa.gov

Hi amber people!

Please find attached a series of photos in .pdf format. To view it,
you'll need the Adobe Acrobat Reader available for free download at
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

This amber is interesting stuff. As most of you know, Borneo Resinite
is largely opaque. The photos are of a transparent amber that changes
color depending on the viewing angle. In direct natural sunlight, as
one turns the piece, its color goes from deep red to reddish-brown to
brown and then back to deep red when the piece arrives back at the
starting point. I'm no expert....can someone tell me if this is an
exhibition of dichroism (or pleochroism)? When viewed in artificial
lighting or indirect sunlight, it's a transparent brown...sometimes
yellowish.

2 drops of acetone has no effect on it, the pieces take on a high
polish (which the photos do not justify), there are swirls and color
gradients in them, and some pieces have plenty of unidentifable debris
within.

The fingers in the photos belong to my wholesale customer, Mr. Teoh.
Borneo is still under cloud cover and rain, so I have no natural
sunlight to show off my own batch. My thanks to Mr. Teoh for allowing
me to use his pictures. He obviously is enjoying more sunshine than I
am!

Andy.

Deep Red Amber.pdf

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Subject: Re: Deep Red Amber
Date: 2/20/2006
From: Tamber12@aol.com

Wow Andy!!! That is some gorgeous stuff!!! Looks like burmite in some respects, doesn't it? What an interesting coincidence. Wonder if it's related in any way chemically? Anyone care to hazard a guess or do you have some evidence? It would be cool to find a common origin.

Tammi

Subject: amber-eggRe: Deep Red Amber
Date: 2/20/2006
From: andy.ng.aik.hoe@gmail.com

Tammi, I had the same thought when I had polished the first piece of
this batch to the 800-grit stage. The coloration and swirls did make
me think of Burmite. Perhapes I could call it Borneoite?

Anyways, that's what I love about these resins...just when you think
you've seen 'em all, a new variety pops up. The thing that excited me
is how it changes color depending on the viewing angle. Gemstone books
by Schumann and Hall do not list amber as being pleochroic. Neither do
any sources I Googled up. Mabye this amber could cause definitions to
be re-written...or mabye not?

Andy

Subject: Re: Ron
Date: 1/20/2006
From: franjam@mcleodusa.net

Dear all (e-mail copied to several),

Please find attached a paper I suspect will be of interest to you, which has just been published by the Royal Society in their new journal Biology Letters.

When I conceived this paper the idea was to examine comparable elements of the both Dominican and Baltic amber faunas, using a dataset large enough to discern whether or not there were any differences in the inclusions that may indicate differences in the way the resins were 'acting as a trap' in the different amber forests, and as such whether or not the different amber faunas were directly comparable ecologically.

It seemed a simple enough idea at the inceptioneither there would be differences or there wouldn't be. I saw it as a no lose analysis with publishable results either way. What I (nor my co-author) didn't expect (maybe unreasonably on reflection) was that we would find differences in some aspects of the data but not in others!

I hope you find the paper interesting.

Cheers and best regards,

Dave Penney

Ps. I am currently unemployed and looking for a position (willing to travel anywhere), so if you hear of anything you think maybe suitable I'd be very grateful if you would forward the information to me. MANY THANKS!

--

Dr David Penney
Earth, Atmospheric and Environmental Sciences
The University of Manchester
Oxford Road
Manchester
M13 9PL, UK

Tel: 00 44 (0)161 275 3807
Fax: 00 44 (0)161 275 3947
E-mail: david.penney@manchester.ac.uk

The Paper

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Subject: One and a half bugs
Date: 2/22/2006
From: andy.ng.aik.hoe@gmail.com

Hi people.

This piece of resin dropped and broke last weekend, revealing 2 bugs
within. I polished up a little window to view the larger bug's head.
The abdomen portion is probably somewhere amidst a few hundred
chunks...I'll probably come across the bug buttocks someday. Sorry
about the poor quality of the photos...I still have no bright sunlight
to snap pictures by.

Andy

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